Author Topic: OSS Development Studio  (Read 8646 times)

Offline squizzz

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OSS Development Studio
« on: November 18, 2005, 01:38:42 am »
Just a while ago I discovered this SF.net project - OSS Development Studio. Anyone having Deja Vu? (check screenshots & features)
They're even using wxWidgets as GUI toolkit. :)

Maybe contacting them would be a good idea, they really do not have to reinvent the whe... erm... blocks. :P

Regards,
Jan
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sethjackson

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Re: OSS Development Studio
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2005, 03:25:17 am »
LOL thats funny. It seems that it was just started :) I wonder if they have heard of C::B?  Someone should contact them....

Offline aggro

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Re: OSS Development Studio
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2005, 06:24:21 pm »
Hello, I am one of the main developers of the OSS Development Studio. Thank you for contacting us.

Yes, we did know about your project before we started. Our projects have some similarities. One reason is the wxWidgets library, which causes for example the edit area look pretty much the same in both projects. Other reason is that both projects are using some standard techniques that are common to C++ programming environments that are used pretty much in every IDE (project tree, output area etc.).

But we do have some differences. Your project is "specifically to meet the most demanding needs of its users. It was designed, right from the start, to be extensible and configurable" while ours is: "easy for beginners to use". Also, when you say "They're not bundled. The templates were provided for your convenience, but you need to download the libraries on your own." we say "which will have some major open source window- graphic- and sound libraries bundled under it".

So the main difference is that while you offer perfect control for most demanding and experienced users, we try to offer smooth and easy start for beginners.

Offline rickg22

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Re: OSS Development Studio
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2005, 06:30:47 pm »
Altho I think it's reinventing the wheel, feel free to work on your IDE. Competition is good, it encourages the distinct players to keep improving their products. "Evolution at work", so to speak.

Good luck :)

Offline takeshi miya

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Re: OSS Development Studio
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2005, 06:42:53 pm »
The templates were provided for your convenience, but you need to download the libraries on your own." we say "which will have some major open source window- graphic- and sound libraries bundled under it".

That is planned/can be done in the next versions of Code::Blocks, asociating the templates to the Dev-C++ plugin, and automatically downloading the libraries and installing them.
That probably is better than 'bundling them' -which anyways you can do it right now with Code::Blocks, instead of creating another IDE. It's Open Suorce, remember!.

I never heard anyone saying that Code::Blocks isn't user-friendly, I find it very easy to use, even for a newbie.

aggro: Not to discourage you, but I find OSS Development Studio path is very simmilar to Code::Blocks, it indeed looks like Code::Blocks in the first versions.
This IMHO is duplicating effort, something that sadly happens very often in the Open Source world.
This also happened with wxWidgets RAD editors, there are like dozens of them, but 1 or 2 are usable.

Join efforts is better than duplicating efforts. If you don't like something of Code::Blocks, please tell us, or even better, join the development :)

Offline Michael

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Re: OSS Development Studio
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2005, 07:23:50 pm »
aggro: Not to discourage you, but I find OSS Development Studio path is very similar to Code::Blocks, it indeed looks like Code::Blocks in the first versions.
This IMHO is duplicating effort, something that sadly happens very often in the Open Source world.

I agree. I find also OSS Development Studio similar to C::B. Join the efforts will lead to a better product which will be more stable, performant and usable.

Aggro: from OSS Development Studio FAQ is cited:

For whom is this program for?

We try to make this as easy as possible for beginners to use by providing some commonly used libraries with our program. But we are also planning to use this software by ourselves, so we will target professional programmers also by providing some advanced tools under simple interfaces for them. See our roadmap for more info about our plans.


I am not very favorable to bundle libraries within an IDE. It would be rather difficult to chose which libraries should I bundle and which not. And there are always users unhappy with the choices done. Moreover, professional programmers do not like too much bundled libraries, but they prefer to chose which ones they would like to use. You can always propose two versions of the same product, but this would be redundant work.

Personally, I prefer the approach used by Dev-Cpp where you can easily download and install the libraries you prefer/need. This approach associated with an active forum is IMHO the best solution.

IMHO it would be a good solution to join the effort, instead of developing another rather similar product. Anyway, if you prefer to continue develop OSS Development Studio, then I wish you all the best.

Best wishes,
Michael

Offline aggro

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Re: OSS Development Studio
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2005, 10:10:39 pm »
I am not very favorable to bundle libraries within an IDE.

OK, "bundle" is propably a wrong word, since in the next version (0.3.0) we are planning to separate libraries from the main program and allow users to download and install only those they want. Similar way you are doing with your project and dev-cpp is doing with their project. But we won't be using devpacks, we will compile and share the libraries on our own. We consider devpack files too old and we like to provide more up-to-date versions instead.

This is something that could be done with C::B also, but do you have you any plans on doing this?

I also tried how easy it would be to install wxWidgets library and compile the helloworld example with it using C::B. It took me few minutes to find the menu option where I download devpacks. It was quite easy to find, download and install the wxWidgets devpack. But when I created new application using the wxWidgets template, it warned me that I should change the wxWidget library location. I had no idea what folder I should put there, since I'm not actually sure how the devpack extracted itself and I failed to compile the helloworld example. We are planning to distribute templates with the libraries and ensure that templates work with installed version of the library.

We also have different GUI. You seem to follow the path of the dev-cpp and you have multiple output tabs. We are not planning to have more than 3 at most (compiler output, find in files, debug ). We also have no plans on adding workspace at all. Just one single project at a time. We also have different way to create projects (which we think is faster and better). And many other small things, which we think make the usage faster and simpler. You are propably not adding these "features" as many of them are more like lack of features. But simple projects just don't need them. For example questions like "file has been created, do you want to add it to your current project" will be irrelevant in our single project program, so we don't need to ask it.

Offline thomas

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Re: OSS Development Studio
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2005, 10:21:17 pm »
Regarding bundling libraries, you are of course aware of the possible license issues? This is not necessarily a trifle.
"We should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time: Premature quotation is the root of public humiliation."

Offline aggro

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Re: OSS Development Studio
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2005, 10:45:14 pm »
Regarding bundling libraries, you are of course aware of the possible license issues?

We try to be. And we are going to use only open source libraries, licensed under well known open source licenses, which allow anyone to distribute the library under the license terms.

Offline takeshi miya

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Re: OSS Development Studio
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2005, 10:47:58 pm »
Quote from: aggro
We consider devpack files too old and we like to provide more up-to-date versions instead.

This is something that could be done with C::B also, but do you have you any plans on doing this?

What I have in mind is having a separate repository of up-to-date DevPacks for C::B, tested with the templates provided in C::B.

I lately was also thinking on implementing something like a source-repository having files for each library wich tells the name of the library, from where to download the source, where to unpack it, how to compile it, and everything pretty much like gentoo ebuilds, but for Windows.

Quote from: aggro
We also have different GUI. You seem to follow the path of the dev-cpp and you have multiple output tabs. We are not planning to have more than 3 at most (compiler output, find in files, debug ). We also have no plans on adding workspace at all. Just one single project at a time.
So it seems like a stripped-down C::B in features.

You'll probably get a lot of feature requests by your users like:
Why can't I have more than one project at time...?
Why I can't compile DirectX...?
Can I use another compiler?
Where's the toolbar?
Where's the RAD editor for wxWidgets?
Why can't I use this IDE in any other system than Windows?



Just to remember you, sometimes more features (in the correct proportion) equals to more easy of use.
Good luck with OSS then!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 11:14:53 pm by Takeshi Miya »

Offline thomas

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Re: OSS Development Studio
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2005, 11:13:33 pm »
Regarding bundling libraries, you are of course aware of the possible license issues?

We try to be. And we are going to use only open source libraries, licensed under well known open source licenses, which allow anyone to distribute the library under the license terms.
When Code::Blocks included MinGW for the first time, the CB devs got a friendly hint that they were violating the GPL license. So you see it is not always as easy as one thinks.
"We should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time: Premature quotation is the root of public humiliation."

Offline aggro

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Re: OSS Development Studio
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2005, 11:50:15 pm »
Quote
Why can't I have more than one project at time...?
Why I can't compile DirectX...?
Can I use another compiler?
Where's the toolbar?
Where's the RAD editor for wxWidgets?
Why can't I use this IDE in any other system than Windows?

And we will answer:
- To keep this IDE simple. If you need more projects at the same time, there are other programs that already do this, like C::B.
- We won't be supporting DirectX, as it isn't one of the cross platform libraries. You can use it with our software, but you need get it yourself and install it.
- Currently we have no plans for other compilers, but we might add support for them at some point if we get enough feature request.
- Toolbars will be added in version 0.5
- We are planning to add some editors to our software when we have basic features together. No specific plans at the moment.
- We are also planning to make at least Linux version, perhaps even Mac version, when we have reached a certain level in our development (somewhere after version 0.5). We are keeping this in mind and we try to write as portable code as possible.

Offline aggro

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Re: OSS Development Studio
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2005, 11:51:22 pm »
When Code::Blocks included MinGW for the first time, the CB devs got a friendly hint that they were violating the GPL license.

Care to tell what did you do to violate the license?

Offline rickg22

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Re: OSS Development Studio
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2005, 11:54:51 pm »
We distributed MINGW without the source. Actually we still do, but now we provide permanent links to the MINGW sources in the webpage now. That does the trick :)

Offline squizzz

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Re: OSS Development Studio
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2005, 11:57:17 pm »
When Code::Blocks included MinGW for the first time, the CB devs got a friendly hint that they were violating the GPL license.

Care to tell what did you do to violate the license?
The same thing that Sony did, by not including GPL-ed source code with the (in)famous rootkit. :)
If you bundle MinGW (any GPL piece of software) with your product, you must provide its sources. (url to the MinGW's site doesn't apply)


Quote
we say "which will have some major open source window- graphic- and sound libraries bundled under it".
AFAIR at some point C::B is going to be distributed with wxWidgets devel-libs to make wxSmith plugin work out of the box (and make some other things easier). The rest can be fortunately done in the future by DevPak plugin + repository done right (plugin works like a charm ATM, just a little integration is needed, and I'm sure it will come some day).


I like the idea of being extremely easy for beginners, but there is an issue - do they stay with OSS Dev Studio once they get more experienced? It may (or might not) push you to implement more advanced features, and there's just a step from duplicating C::B efforts... :(
Of course I wish you all the best with the development (so the above will not happen). Good luck!

Regards,

« Last Edit: November 22, 2005, 12:11:36 am by squizzz »
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